The following messages were posted on the Pro-Lifers Against Clinic Violence debate board in December, 1999, by pro-informed:
I never said that ALL choicers are pessimistic... My comment was spurred by how overly pessimistic some choicers seemed who had visited this site recently - see messages posted here which reveal EXTREME chocier gloom & doom mindset. I do think it's interesting to note though that when I posted this info at another message board (which has many choicer participants) the ONLY choicer response so far has been a choicer dismissing such efforts as futile (and therefore not worth their time?). By contrast, pro-lifer response so far has been positive and giving other ideas of how to help.
But since you brought it up...
I have noticed in decades of involvement in this controversy that most of the choicers I've met and talked to share the pessimistic view that such a drastic act as abortion is needed and justified because they believe things have gotten so hopelessly bad. While some see abortion as a temporary lesser evil... others think it must always be legal and often express a belief that society will never improve to the point that the "need" for abortion will be eliminated (pessimism). I have also seen much evidence that some choicers view promoting/defending abortion as an easier, cheaper way to "help" than involvement in more humane efforts.
Of course, some people who condone abortion admit they don't really "need" it because of dire circumstances... It just enables them to behave in a sexually irresponsible manner. And maybe many of the choicers who privately want abortion to stay legal for that reason are publicly claiming abortion is "needed" because of social problems. That would explain the apathy and uninvolvement of choicers who say legal abortion is "needed" because of such problems... but don't bother to do anythign positive to help solve the problems. Maybe some of the choicer pessimism is fake...
While it is fairly common for choicers to challenge lifers to explan how they are helping to reduce the demand for abortion... Pro-lifers rarely ask choicers the same question! And you have to admit that choicer groups spend virtually all of their budgets on defending "abortion rights' while doing little to nothing to help women who refuse abortion.
Can I assume by your hesitance to reveal "personal info" on the internet that the program you say you are involved with (and claim is sponsored by or affiliated with the pro-choice movement) is specific only to your community (not a national project)? That in itself may indicate the lack of concern/advocacy for other options and positive help efforts inside the pro-choice movement. There are plenty of national level choicer groups for defending "abortion rights"! Why aren't there an equal number of choicer programs for assisting women who don't want to abort?!?!? Why aren't choicer groups spending as much on other options as they do on abortion?
Faced with having to pretend that they "NEED" to abort because of dire hopeless circumstances... or admitting they just WANT to abort so they can have sex minus hassles... MOST choicers I've encountered choose the former.
I'm not saying that social problems don't exist and never are related to why women abort... But if that REALLY was why EVERY woman aborted, then TRULY pro-"choice" folks would be opening their pocketbooks and rolling up their sleeves MUCH MORE than most choicers currently are to help reduce those problems.
I'm willing to admit that not ALL choicers are pessimistic... some are just pretending to be... and others don't even bother to pretend and openly reveal selfish reasons for wanting abortion to stay legal.
I think it's very interesting the way many choicers INSIST that women have a "right to choose" while refusing to even discuss father's rights in the matter. No doubt this encourages even more males to shut up and butt out when it comes to abortion AND child support. Females who claim concern about the problem of deadbeat dads and employ fear of abandonment and the expenses of being a single mom as an excuse to condone the brutal act of abortion... while showing zero interest in even discussing the right of fathers who DO want to help protect and care for their children... don't fool me.
It's sort of a tragic comedy the way young college students lap up that anarchist garbage the liberal profs dish out... never realizing THEY are just cogs in the pro-abortion machinery themselves. And then they come to venues such as this to bore is with their smugness and ignorance as if they've discovered the key to life that everyone else somehow missed.
And to think they pay lots of money to the universities to become such mindless little puppets. It never occurs to them that all they've managed to do is replace parental authority with self-serving university staff who view themselves as demi-gods that the students must worship. Out of the frying pan into the fire...
I kind of feel sorry for them. I guess they didn't get to have the kind of childhood my children enjoy: I believe in educating and enlightening children rather than indoctrinating them. Some choicers act as if life with minimal mind control is simply not possible. Maybe that's the only kind of life they've experienced so far... Really some choicers sound so down and desperate. Hopefully nobody acts on their advice to kill off the hopelessly gloomy... because that would include eliminating the pessimistic all-is-lost choicers as a sort of "mercy" killing!
Cheer up chap! Things are not nearly as bad as you make them out to be. Stop whining and complaining and start helping those of us who are making changes and improvements.
another foul-mouthed choicer...
First of all, I've noticed that quite a few choicers online lately can't seem to post minus obscenities...
What are y'all so angry (afraid) about?
As to your claim that you've never met a capitalist choicer - laughing out loud
Are you saying you didn't know that women pay for abortions (and abortionists make $$$$ doing abortions)?!?!? I mean I knew pro-lifers have to educate the public... but I was hopong you knew a little bit about it.
Don't be silly. Abortion is BIG business. The whole controversy is turning into post-aborted women vs the abortion industry. That's right, the ABORTION INDUSTRY - complete with advertising campaigns, profits, business conferences, lobbyists and lawyers.
Maybe you should meet the abortion providers. They can relieve you of your ignorance concerning how "capitalistic" abortions can be.
And I guess you've never heard of pro-life feminism either... since you are under the false impression that all pro-lifers are trying to deprive women of rights. Bt the way, where do you stand on the issue of Informed Consent? Did you know that it is the abortion industry that is fighting efforts to grant women this important patient protection right?
This is online debate of abortion... NOT biased media coverage, abortion industry PR, censored public school presentation... Simple-minded slogans, stereotypes and assumptions that pass for "debate" and "education" in those forums will prove pathetically insufficient in this forum.
I strongly suggest you do a little investigation on your own (just search on "abortion", "informed Consent", "fetal development", etc.) and then come back better prepared to debate.
Oh, and leave the obscenities out. We will continue to warn and educate others about abortion no matter how big of a temper tantrum you throw. Do you really think we'll just consent to let unborn babies be ripped apart just because you'll talk dirty if we don't let ya? Laughing out loud.
So I'm wondering...
If some choicers view the world as such a horrible place that even the brutal killing of innocent unborn babies is OK...
Then do they also think it would be a good idea to just nuke us all? I mean if things have gotten so hopelessly messed up, maybe the whole thing should be aborted?
And I wonder why they single out innocent unborn babies (who had NOTHING to do with making things so bad: didn't pollute, exploit, commit crimes, etc.) as the ones that should be eliminated? Wouldn't it make more sense if they advocated the death penalty for those who committed the atrocities that led to such pessimism?
I also wonder why it's assumed that atheism and choicism go together (and theism and opposition to abortion go together)? Isn't it a popular choicist argument that "unplanned" babies might end up becoming criminals and/or abused? Didn't choicers claim that legalizing abortion was going to eliminate those problems? Well, if none of us/this was "planned/wanted", and the unplanned/unwanted equals abuse/crime theory is believed, then destruction of the world would be the "solution" analogous to abortion wouldn't it?
You can't solve problems by killing the people who have them. When choicers start admitting that, we'll start to see some real solutions. As long as it is legal to kill unborn babies, choicers will continue to employ the cheap/easy/selfish/irresponsible "solution" of abortion. As long as abortion industry PR, loyal choicist support, the apathy of the general public, and the fear of some pro-lifers of sounding "judgemental" allows them to pretend killing innocent unborn victims is acceptable and is "helping", they will continue to commit thousands of abortions per day.
I read a quote once about sex never being an emergency... If things really were so bad that killing innocent humans would be justified, then how could things still be so good that sex need not be refrained from? You know it's really not natural for species to engage in sex when circumstances are so dire that procreation is intolerable. I'm getting tired of women whining that they "had to" abort because they male they mated with isn't up to the responsibility of parenting... or claiming they "need" to abort because they can't afford to allow their baby to live. With the exception of rape (which is rarely the case for the thousands of abortions done per day) the same reasons those women give for aborting should have been used for refraining from having sex. Sheeesh! Are dire circumstances and lounge lizard males a major turn-on for choicer females? Are choicer females blind to the problems and flaws UNTIL they get pregnant?!?!? Yes, I know that some males pretend they "love" the women they have sex with... pretend they will stand by them if they get pregnant... But WHEN is the "pro-choice" movement going to start speaking up against such exploitation of women? WHY are they content to just facilitate this sexual exploitation of females by selling abortions? Everyone knows that the males who engage in such shameful behavior depend on legalized abortion to enable them to get away with it. Really the abortion industry may as well have commercials by and for such males. A truly honest abortion ad would have a playboy bragging about how many of his unborn babies have been conveniently aborted and how many women he's "scored".
It's time to stop believing in the myth of "free sex". It's time to acknowledge the real causes of the problems, the real culprits, and then to move on to the real solutions.
Pro-lifers have to start challenging choicers to stop with the excuses, whining, pretending, and the blaming of innocent victims for the problems.
While I agree to a certain extent that sometimes people are not nearly as in charge as they think they are...
Your extreme pessimism is rather pathetic.
If I wasn't worried that you might be suffering severe (perhpas even suicidal?) depression, I'd find your posts hilarious.
So there are often forces and motives behind the scenes... get over it already.
You do have some power over your choices and life. So cut some puppet strings and unplug from the matrix. you are not doomed to be just fuel for the parasites... unless you really want to be....
what one supporter of abortion said
I agree that abortion is a drastic way for women and their unborn babies to sacrifice so that society doesn't have to change to provide for the needs of women and children...and so that the myth of "free sex" can be kept alive... and as such should be rejected by feminists.
And while it's claimed by some choicers that they see abortion as a temporary or necessary evil until things improve... something women "need" for now because society is failing to meet their real needs...
other choicers are very open about their real feelings:
"Let us grow up and become adults instead of little children who have to bicker about every issue in life. For my part abortion is like free enterprise in that a person has the right to choose what they want just like buying what brand of toilet tissue or mouthwash. Also why can't "pro-lifers" just come down hard on the moronic women who had babies out of wedlock? These women are the ones who should be made to be the object of ridicule and public humiliation, not being molly coddled. My opinion is these women made their bed, so let them suffer. BUT if all else fails, abort those embryos before society has to pay even more money for these women's mistakes. . ."
We will not resolve this decades old dispute if we pretend pro-abort extremists do not exist... if we allow ALL choicers to pretend they are concerned about the needs/rights/safety/feelings of women when they keep revealing to us that they really aren't. Of course most choicers would never openly admit the kind of thing revealed in that quote... and I honestly believe some choicers really think they are helping women, really are pro-choice... but quite a few of the choicers online are siding with the abortion industry instead of the women when it comes to Informed Consent and the needed health/safety reforms of abortion clinics. And far too many choicers are virtually silent when it comes to such anti-choice/anti-feminist issues as forced abortions, gender selection abortions, and women who are beat up or murdered when they refuse to abort. It is almost impossible to get a choicer to contact their leadership, the movement that claims to represent them, to address such anti-choice/anti-female concerns. It is entirely appropriate for pro-lifers to challenge and shame such hypocrisy.
extreme doom & gloom
I used to do what you are doing.
I used to believe that optimism was for fools and that pessimism was synonymous with realism.
What you don't realize is that extreme pessimism or hopelessness is just as unrealistic as pie-in-the-sky optimism.
Yes, there are problems that need to be solved. Pro-lifers realize that. Most of the pro-lifers I know are directly involved in charitable work and trying to help people so they don't feel they have to abort. We aren't asking people to just pretend the problems don't exist. And we don't expect people to suffer while we turn away in shameful apathy. Pro-life individuals and groups are involved in many ways, rolling up our sleeves and opening our pocketbooks to help people.
By contrast, groups that claim to be pro-choice only spend money and efforts defending and promoting the one choice of abortion. While I sometimes meet choicers who are involved in charitable work, more often they feel such efforts are the SOLE responsibility of those who oppose abortion as a (or perhaps "THE") solution to societal problems. Sometimes I meet a choicer individual who is really involved in helping people... but they are often so burned-out that they have lost the ability to see the victims as people with rights and have decided that the only thing to do is to get rid of those who need our help. More often choicers believe that by merely helping to keep abortion legal they have "helped" the unfortunate or needy. They have an "I already gave at the office" attitude and use their pro-choice advocacy as an excuse to do anything else.
I sincerely hipe that you have been doing something other than promoting/defending abortion & euthenasia to help those people who you describe as having such a low quality of life. Maybe you're just suffering severe caregiver burn-out...
So now YOU are going to chastise pro-lifers for supposedly not doing anything to work towards solutions? Laughing out loud
You know I was really starting to worry about you - that you might be a suicidal post-aborted woman (there's a LOT of them you know).
But now I suspect you may be just another cold-hearted choicer playing games (there's a LOT of them too).
Gee, what happened to all your extreme pessimism and things have gotten so hopelessly bad thoughts? Now you are chiding pro-lifers to join the (nonexistent) efforts of choicers to help the victims? Laughing out loud
Once upon a time I tried to start a project in the community to challenge choicers and lifers to a sort of contest to see who could contribute the most money and goods for worthy causes. Guess what happened? The choicers refused to participate. They simply could not understand why they had to do anything more than keep the local abortion clinic open as their way to "help" the needy. And the pro-lifers were already donating lots of money, goods and hours of volunteer work to help with established charities and crisis pregnancy centers. So the project never even got started.
I know what you're doing... you're not really interested in helping the needy. You revealed in just about every message you've posted here your desire to kill them all off. Now you're trying to make pro-lifers feel shame about supposedly wasting time debating here instead of doing charitable work. You are driven by an emotional NEED to silence pro-lifers. It won't work. That tactic has already been tried so many times before by previous choicer participants. Check out some other message boards, especially the archives. Choicers intent on derailing debate rarely last long.
Most pro-lifers are already doing quite a lot of charitable work... we don't do this INSTEAD of that - but in addition to helping women and children. What are YOU doing to help people? Have you contacted any so-called pro-choice groups or leaders to demand that they start spending some money to help with other choices besides abortion?
I understand the choicer needs, motives, and methods to prevent education and discussion about abortion. Been there, done that, myself. You may find your pathetic tactics to be successful sometimes... But beware that many savvy pro-lifers are online that are totally onto your games. If you think what you're up to is going to be easy or ultimately effective at stopping debate you may end up with a severe and GENUINE case of frustration and depression. Just thought I should warn you now.
Response from jordan to Pat Goltz, same thread
listen bitch I'm a woman, and i don't want you imposing your fear of death and stupid anti-life lies on me. FUCK YOU pat. If you believe in god, which you probably do, you fucking idiot, "he"'s gonna fuck you up.
pro-informed to jordan
anger is fear
Your vicious and uncalled-for attack is inappropriate in this forum and interferes with the efforts of those who have a genuine interest in debate.
On other message boards (that have monitors and employ censorship) your message would have been promptly deleted and you would be permanantly banned from participating.
I prefer to see such revealing hostile choicer posts remain. You see, for decades pro-lifers have had to endure the frustration of media bias and the wealthy powerful abortion industry's ability to use positive PR to make choicers appear moderate and reasonable. It's not likely we'll see the sort of venom and nastiness some choicers spew in one of those expensive ads choicer groups sponsor - Laughing out loud. With online debate, people are starting to see how radical some choicer are and the media and abortion industry are helpless to prevent the truth being revealed.
I also have had my fill of people saying one thing publicly (like how they are for "choice") and something quite different in private (like how they are afraid that without abortion black people will breed too much). So I welcome the opportunity that online debate gives to address the real underlying but previously hidden motives of some choicers. I want to hear what people really think so I can have the opportunity to address their real motives instead of wasting time on what they pretend to be up to.
You sound very upset. You say you are a woman. Are you a post-aborted woman? I had an abortion and for ten years after it, I NEEDED to defend abortion. It didn't matter to me if my arguments were illogical, unfair, hostile or even pro-abortion instead of pro-choice. Unfortunately I provided a ton of free PR to the abortion industry during that time. Is that what you are doing? Are you so afraid to face the reality of what happened to your unborn baby that you simply MUST try to shut pro-lifers up even if that means cussing at them? Please consider carefully that while you may be protecting yourself for now you may be harming other women. I can't emphasize enough how ashamed I felt when I learned the truth and saw how my ignorance and fear was exploited by the abortion industry. Denial is rarely permanent. Eventually the task of protecting yourself from the truth just becomes too much. And when you go through the traumatic post-denial stage, the choicer groups who profited from your loyal defense will laugh at you and treat you most cruelly. And guess who will be there to defend and help you then? People like Pat, the same people you are attacking now. Don't be a fool for the abortion industry. They don't care about you. The nanosecond you stop letting them exploit your support they will dump you and stomp on you.
You also seem very depressed. Your posts reveal a sense of total gloom as if there is no hope that society can improve and that women have to abort because things are so hopeless. If you are a post-aborted woman, I feel compelled to inform you that severe depression and pessimism are symptoms of PAS. Did you read the warning I posted to post-aborted women? Perhaps you should visit some post-abortion support sites instead of trying to debate.
please debate minus obscenities
Your message was meant to chastise another poster?
When you resort to obscenities you reveal something about yourself - not the person you are flaming.
You reveal that you lack the ability to debate in a rational manner and perhaps are driven by fear. Anger is fear, and you seem very afraid to allow in-depth discussion of abortion to proceed minus the interruption of personal insults. Online debate of abortion is not for everyone. Please excuse yourself from the debate if you cannot handle it.
This is a very serious issue with many important related topics such as Informed Consent, forced abortions, gender selection abortions, women who've been killed by what they were assured would be a "safe/simple" procedure, women suffering severe post-abortion-Syndrome, etc. Posting obscenities does nothing to help address any of those important issues.
You said something about abortion for rape. I would like to discuss that aspect more with you. I ask that you have the courage and courtesy to stay with that topic while we discuss it in depth. I am willing to discuss other topics with you too of course, but am not interested in the common choicer evasion tactic of constantly switching topics. How do you feel about children that were conceived by rape? Do you harbor prejudicial feelings towards them? Do you ever refer to such children as the "rapist's child"? There was once a case of a rape victim who was forced by her parents to abort her baby. Do you think that girl should have had the right to refuse an abortion? Do you think groups that claim to be pro-choice should have condemned her parents for forcing her to abort? Do you think pro-choicers have any responsibility to speak up against pro-abortion pressures/expectations that rape victims should abort? Don't you ever worry that rape victims may feel that your comments might make them feel that they are supposed to reject their own babies, that they have to hide any feelings of love they might have for their child?
As a feminist, I must object to the attitude that whatever a female chooses to do is nobody else's business - even killing her own children.
Why shouldn't the behavior of females be open to scrutiny? Why should the standards of behavior for females be so lowered (or nonexistent in the case of killing unborn babies)?
Has the choicer version of feminism become so degraded that females are believed to be BENEATH common decency? Is there no act vile or cruel enough to be considered wrong for a female to commit? That is not "equality" with males! That's a belief that females cannot be expected to be any better than the WORST of males!
By the way, if males really did have zero say or influence regarding abortion, there probably would be NO abortions! You see many women admit the main reason they even considered abortion in the first place is because the male wanted the baby killed. Males involved in the pornography industry have contributed heavily to the lobby groups that support abortion. No wonder a creep with a license plate reading "Free Sex" is a regular customer at one abortion clinic.... bringing in different women. Maybe he's a pimp or the owner of a strip joint. Legalized abortion provides a way for them to protect the "product" (female bodies) they are selling from becoming less marketable (pregnant). I never hear choicers complaining about males who openly defend legalized abortion. And it's almost impossible to get a female choicer to demand their leadership to take a strong stand against the common practice of males to pressure females to abort. For that matter, they don't even speak up when males go so far as to force abortions and/or beat up or murder women who refuse to abort. Exactly what portion of choicer organization budgets are dedicated to decreasing the expectations/pressures that women should abort? ZERO. So complaints from female choicers about the opinions of males are dishonest.
As prolifeman has pointed out so many times before... female choicers don't use such arguments because they are fair, honest or logical... They use them because they hope they will shut pro-lifers up. At least you were honest and openly admitted you wanted (needed) prolifeman to keep quiet. Usually choicers pretend they favor open discussion. But I doubt seriously you will succed in making him feel ashamed for daring to speak up on behalf of the unborn babies AND women who are harmed by the abortion industry. Because he isn't trying to win choicer approval. And he knows how much post-aborted POST-DENIAL women like myself appreciate his efforts.
I believe anger is fear. When I'm confronted with the more hostile, extreme choicers I get MORE optimistic since I suspect they are really scared that they may be wrong. Sometimes it's actually easier to reach the ones who are scared so silly that they MUST shout and rage and sloganize and disrupt debate and cling to stereotpyes. And you have to admit I kept challenging them to examine their fears and to join in debate. Nobody really wants to think of themselves as ignorant or cowardly. The appropriate pro-life response to choicer panic is to challenge them and expose their underlying ignorance and fear.
From http://discserver.snap.com/Indices/43683.html Pro-Lifers Against Clinic Violence debate and discussion. Reprinted with permission.
I am continually appalled by the absolute and utter pessimism I get from pro-choice folks. I have dedicated my life to finding positive solutions to problems, and I have an indomitable attitude that we can find a way to make life humane for everyone. I see abortion as a negation of everything I stand for, and I greatly fear that in being so pessimistic, pro-choice folks have chosen to give up on ever achieving equality for women. There are times when I get so disgusted I can't see straight. What right do we have to go around preaching gloom and doom to each other? What movement for rights ever succeeded when it was headed by folks who believe that we can't win? Why should we resign ourselves to the perceived necessity to attack ourselves because someone is oppressing us? Come on, folks! Cut it out! Let's find an acceptable solution! Abortion isn't it! Either women are powerful or we are not. There is nothing empowering about attacking ourselves.
And while we are on the subject, it is high time that men take responsibility for their children and that they are given the right to protect them. Women stand to gain absolutely nothing by encouraging male irresponsibility.
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